|  Author | Topic: Philosophy (Read 391 times) |
twilightvigilx
Galcian's Elite
![[image]](http://arcadia.island.free.fr/images/hama_profil.gif)
J'aime le fromage!
member is offline
![[avatar]](http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/cleverlikeSeneca/Link.jpg)
This is what I look like... mostly
![[aim]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/aim.gif)
Joined: Oct 2005
Gender: Male 
Posts: 262
Location: Another Plain of existance.
Karma: 7 |  | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #30 on Jan 4, 2007, 4:11pm » | |
Though it is a bit irrelevant, I do actually give most of my artwork away. My collection at home pales in comparison to all of the figures I have given to people. Regardless, my point is that there is value in doing something for the sake of doing it. Some of my art has ulterior motives, some does not. Ultimately, if I were the last person on earth, I think I would still make sculptures, because I like making sculptures. Whats wrong with that? Anyways, I meant Art in the broad sense, not my specific crafts of expertise.
Forgive me, Tim, if it would appear as though I am "killing" God. I just find that the world itself is proof enough for God, and that God is in all things. Thus I don't need to use God in my argument, since under my reasoning, he is implied, and I would rather like to keep my arguments open for use against believers of other faiths. If there were to Be a Hindu within this group, none of the Christian arguments would be valid in a shared sense, nor ethical to use because of a lack of shared understanding. God does not need me to use him outright, and I use him in each of my posts in my own ways. That is enough for me.
|
Admin: The sad thing is that it's true... |
|
CleverlikeSeneca
Valuan Prince
![[image]](http://arcadia.island.free.fr/images/hama_face.gif)
member is offline
![[avatar]](http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/cleverlikeSeneca/deathnotehalf.jpg)
Joined: Sept 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 182
Location: Spare oom
Karma: 7 | | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #31 on Jan 5, 2007, 2:02am » | |
Sorry i think you took me seriously... i was trying to be humorus but seeing as i check this site at strange times and so was a bit tired i can understand that it ended up being offensive...
being serious now the problem with that thought is that once again the art that was made for its own sake is lost and so is the Artists and all those admiring the Art leaving it as if the Art was never made atall, and thus can't possibly be for its own sake for its own being is lost as soon as its being created
|
Choose wisely, for it may be your last.
![[image]](http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b200/cleverlikeSeneca/underworld.jpg) |
|
twilightvigilx
Galcian's Elite
J'aime le fromage!
member is offline
This is what I look like... mostly
Joined: Oct 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 262
Location: Another Plain of existance.
Karma: 7 | | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #32 on Jan 5, 2007, 9:01pm » | |
That's not what I'm saying, once again. For example, take philosophy in general. Simon Blackburn writes that he has three reasons for promoting philosophy and philosophizing. The High Ground response that he gives is philosophy for it's own sake, that philosophy doesn't have to have any practical application, that philosophy in and of itself is valuable, without any practical application at all.
I would say that living itself is valuable, and that an end value does not have to be realized, for living for the sake of living is just fine.
Why does it matter if the Art, all the memories of it and all it's benifit's to society one day become forgotten? Afterall, If I was an ancient egyptian serf, farming for my entire life, my legacy would not be important, much less significant in any way, shape or form to today's society. How does that matter to me? Not in any way, since as an ancient egyptian serf, I am long since dead. the end result of my farming has long since passed away, and is no longer significant. However, because my life had significance while I was alive, it has all the significance I will ever need, or anybody will ever need. As an egyptian serf, an eternal meaning is the last thing I need.
|
Admin: The sad thing is that it's true... |
|
CleverlikeSeneca
Valuan Prince
member is offline
Joined: Sept 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 182
Location: Spare oom
Karma: 7 | | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #33 on Jan 6, 2007, 2:45am » | |
ok i get what your saying but then what makes anything meanigful then. and if you really believe that how do you keep going and not cut your wrists right now, its a depressing theory. where is the sence in life or is this existentialist, adn there is no sense? flesh out your theory a little would you. there has to be meaning somewhere
|
Choose wisely, for it may be your last.
|
|
Seth Black
Patrol Guard
member is offline
![[avatar]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/isdfcooke/BomberOutfit.jpg)
The Way of the Spear
Joined: Jan 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 6
Karma: 2 | | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #34 on Jan 7, 2007, 1:49am » | |
As Dr. Greg House (House MD) said, "...the answer...to life itself: Sex."
|
![[image]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/isdfcooke/254.jpg) |
|
twilightvigilx
Galcian's Elite
J'aime le fromage!
member is offline
This is what I look like... mostly
Joined: Oct 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 262
Location: Another Plain of existance.
Karma: 7 | | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #35 on Jan 9, 2007, 9:36pm » | |
well, to this degree, everything is meaningfull. I don't cut my wrists, because there is more to see and to be done while I exist on this plane. That said, there are somethings that are more meaningfull than others, due to the value we place on them, but as a whole, there is meaning to everything for everything's sake. Granted, I'm not one to assume that that is the only reason we exist, but it is certainly one that we can use in a secular sense.
|
Admin: The sad thing is that it's true... |
|
CleverlikeSeneca
Valuan Prince
member is offline
Joined: Sept 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 182
Location: Spare oom
Karma: 7 | | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #36 on Jan 9, 2007, 10:40pm » | |
could you be more specific how something can be worthwhile for its own sake, how does that work? where does this self worth come from, if as I think you are gonna say it coems from our assigning it so, what gives us the right to do so, we are not Gods we only can assign temporary worth being that we are temporary. being that we are temporary as soon as we pass shoudl said worth pass as well being once again wothless. taking it thus our lives are worthwhile only as long as we live as soon as we are gone we are worthless.
|
Choose wisely, for it may be your last.
|
|
twilightvigilx
Galcian's Elite
J'aime le fromage!
member is offline
This is what I look like... mostly
Joined: Oct 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 262
Location: Another Plain of existance.
Karma: 7 | | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #37 on Jan 11, 2007, 4:11am » | |
Actually, our own assignment of worth wasn't necessarily what I was going for, but I'll tackle that in a minute.
Rephrasing my point again, everything has worth in existence because it exists.
Nonexistence implies that something has no form, content, or value of any kind, quantitative or otherwise.
Things that are in existence have value in some sense, since they all have some kind of value or form, be it a physical object with mass and volume, or an idea, composed of synapses and emotion.
Therefore, it is greater to exist than to not exist.
Therefore, anything that exists has some level of value, substance, or merit to it's name, that makes it greater than things in nonexistence.
Now we add in time
The past is unchangeable, so far as human beings have discovered. Therefore, everything that has existed in some time, will always exist in that time. There will never be a time when Albert Einstein never existed. Therefore, he will always exist in the span of time. Even when the world ends, and the sun dies off, there will always have been an Albert Einstein.
Therefore, everything that we do, will always be in the time that we have done them. Therefore, everything that we do will always exist.
Since everything that exists is better than everything that does not exist, everything that we do will always have value.
Now, coming back to the point Tim has made:
We have already established worth of existence in a religious sense, so now I will approach it from a secular sense: that once we die, there is no afterlife, and death is final.
Things that occur after my death do not concern me, because I am no longer living. The time period in which my mind exists has come to a close. My mind will always exist in the time period allotted to it, but it will not exist in any time after that. Therefore, my concerns should be of those things that I govern with in my allotted span of time.
We are given temporary existence, in which temporary indication of worth is necessary to our survival. Therefore, what we are not only given the to determine the self worth of certain things, it is our necessary job to determine a certain level of worth. Granted, some things are out of this scope. We do not need to judge the inherent value of another human being to survive, and thus we should not. Only those things which we have a connection to, such as something we need or value, should we have control over.
Since my actions will always exist, there is a level of value ascribed to them. Worth that we assign to something is only temporary relative to the span of all time, but within our own lifespans, the things we value may have far more value ascribed to them. Therefore, the values that we assign to things will continue to bear that value forever, within the span of our lives. A hundred years from now, the things that I value today will still have value as the things that I value today, and since time is permanent, nothing can change that. Also, since we are not influenced by events after we are dead, events that happen past our lifespan hold a relatively little amount of value to us compared to the much larger value that we assign to them in life.
Therefore, existence has meaning just because it exists, and things that exist within our lifetime may have even more meaning, and will always have more meaning, because at one time they had more meaning, as time is permanent.
|
Admin: The sad thing is that it's true... |
|
Rhex
Admiral
![[image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/spiffyduck/OneWingedAngel.gif)
member is offline
![[avatar]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/spiffyduck/Crisis.gif)
BeforeCrisis
![[msn]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/msn.gif)
![[homepage]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif)
Joined: Sept 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 443
Location: Soul Society
Karma: 9 | | Christian Philosophy
« Reply #38 on Jan 11, 2007, 8:54am » | |
Quote:Furthermore, from a Christian perspective, one should not be a good person and a good Christian because one has an immortal soul and one will always be accountable for one's own actions. Rather, one should be a good person because the world is not about us. The world was never about us; rather it is about God, and since God is the focus of existence, then we do good for his sake, not our own. That is why we
"experience life, to give to others, and experience love and compassion," not for our own sakes, but for Gods.
|
|
I agree with this halfway. Yes, in one sense, we live to please God. We also live to make his will done, to do what he commands, which in short is to be a good person, a good christian, among many other things.
Another point I'd like to address is our accountability as Christians. This is not something to disregard, but it's not something to dwell on either. The truth is, we will all be accountable for our actions in the end; this is unescapable. However, if you are living your life according to God's will, and living to please God, you'll find that you don't have to worry about most of your actions, because they will be the right actions.
And just to clarify, being and acting for God's sake covers loving and praising him, wanting to do his universal will and work as his hands and feet to plant a seed in the hearts of unsaved people.
|
[Add to the GMS hacking Wall of Shame]
There is no justice or peace;
There is only forgiveness.
|
|
CleverlikeSeneca
Valuan Prince
member is offline
Joined: Sept 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 182
Location: Spare oom
Karma: 7 | | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #39 on Jan 11, 2007, 10:45am » | |
but Time only goes in one direction. we may have value in a time past, but since that time has come and gone, it is all swept away. Time is not stationary as you seem to suppose. we cannot jump back and forth in it. its more like a river where we are at the mouth of said river we stand on the bridge facing up river. Once that bit of river below you passes by it becomes part of the sea of past river, but is never a river again its something else. but it is certainly irretreivable. it is wih the river we concern oursleves indeed only with the River CAN we concern oursleves. the sea is behind us unseen and indeed purely conjectural. we don't know it really ever existed, we have records and memories but those being apart of us may have been created with us. we don't know but that the Earth just started yesterday, or two secods ago, or five years ago. and as we don't know that that ever existed it cannot have value. the expression that time is valuable is laughable because we cannot save it, we cannot control it. it just is. once its gone its gone end of story Byebye. and thus we cannot possibly rely on the value of something that doesn't exist any more. hence once again we are valueless
|
Choose wisely, for it may be your last.
|
|
Rhex
Admiral
member is offline
BeforeCrisis
Joined: Sept 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 443
Location: Soul Society
Karma: 9 | | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #40 on Jan 11, 2007, 1:42pm » | |
I was thinking... Maybe I should edit and spell check all the posts. Some of the stuff I read is barely legible. *coughtimcough* But I know I don't always use it either. Meh..
I'll submit my opinion here:
As most of us know, the fourth dimension is often referred to as time. Time is linear, you both made this point; you can't return to the 'past.' The past is a reference to the positions of all things on a previous measurement of time. The lifespan of a human is short in comparison to time in total. It has been approximately 2007 years since the man Jesus died; today human lifespans average around 70 years.
I don't think you can ever suggest that our position in time is new. For Christians, this can be proven by the bible. For all people, consider this: Think of your grandparents. Now think of your grandparents thinking of their grandparents. This cycle would go on for quite some time. The memories and knowledge of the previous generations are enough to sustain that there was an expansive past, even if you weren't there.
Value. TVX seems to have a good grip on this subject. Existence has value, but that value is based on time alone. An object existing for merely a moment is of no use to anyone. It has no value. The use of an object over time is what produces its value. But saying that something has no value is out of the question. We all know all objects last some period of time; to say some object has no value, you must first consult every other object that is able to place value on the object. For instance, a tree. You may not care for a tree in Africa, but maybe a monkey values this tree. The tree has value to the monkey, and it can't be worthless. You still have your opinions, though. People are the same way, in a sense. Every man's life is significant, for the reasons I mentioned above and you might say for his divine image. Men don't set values, values are inherent in the minds of people. Without value, the world would soon perish in complete chaos and disregard.
And that's all I have to say.
And Seth, did it ever occur to you that the character of "House" is a complete torpedo? 
And is life a question? Life? ![[image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/spiffyduck/Christz_pillepalle.gif)
|
[Add to the GMS hacking Wall of Shame]
There is no justice or peace;
There is only forgiveness.
|
|
CleverlikeSeneca
Valuan Prince
member is offline
Joined: Sept 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 182
Location: Spare oom
Karma: 7 | | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #41 on Jan 11, 2007, 4:50pm » | |
Hey I don't always have time to spell check, I got 16 credits going on,a girlfriend thats about five hundred miles away and a social life... (I am taking Greek this semester...talk about time consuming) so be glad I can take this time at all. (oh and operantly I am in the Wizard of OZ)
It may be true that a monkey puts value on a tree n Africa, but what gives value to the monkey who can thus give value to the tree? etc.. and once that monkey and tree is gone whats to say they ever existed. what lasting value do they have. or is it all gone and as soon as the Heat death of the universe happens the universe might as well never have existed.
also how do we know that our memories are to be trusted and that our grandparents memories are to be trusted. Your dead relatives could be a figment of you imagination. memories have been fabricated, their called dreams, and misremembering. like when your brother distinctly remembers you saw a movie with him but you don't remember it at all, did it happen? in your reality it didn't but apperantly in his it did. perhaps these are actually different realities or perhaps you forgot or perhaps he remembered it wrong... you don't know...
|
Choose wisely, for it may be your last.
|
|
Rhex
Admiral
member is offline
BeforeCrisis
Joined: Sept 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 443
Location: Soul Society
Karma: 9 | | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #42 on Jan 11, 2007, 6:18pm » | |
Why are you asking me why that monkey has value? To devalue that monkey, first ask every possible thing that is able to give a semblance of opinion. Value is based in your mind, and your mind is different from any other person's mind. True value is found when ANY value is placed on an object. You can devalue it in your mind, but you can never take away the value placed on it by another.
And... Don't even start with all that "does it actually exist" mumbo-jumbo. For one, you know from a religious perspective that it does all exist. Second, it's not probable, if possible, to change every person's memory. I can remember certain events and people and places, places where we were together, as can you. If that's not proof enough, I bet all our parents remember certain events, people, and places as well. If you seriously doubt the veracity of the past, then how can you be certain of the future? Will you question the truth that lies in the 3 dimensions of form? Will you question your own existence? Will you read this? Will you comprehend? Does it matter? I can tell you the answer to the last one. No.
I bow to your multitaking abilities. I myself am pretty busy too. Besides taking the time I could have used to work on school computers to join in this convo, I have finals next week, the church play this weekend, te winter retreat next weekend, so yeah. I'm not really doing any senior sliding either. ![[image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/spiffyduck/costumed-smiley-054.gif)
|
[Add to the GMS hacking Wall of Shame]
There is no justice or peace;
There is only forgiveness.
|
|
twilightvigilx
Galcian's Elite
J'aime le fromage!
member is offline
This is what I look like... mostly
Joined: Oct 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 262
Location: Another Plain of existance.
Karma: 7 | | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #43 on Jan 12, 2007, 1:49am » | |
For the record, correct spelling and grammer helps poeple look at your arguments and points with respect. It is true that the average human being will find an argument more sound if it isn't ridden with typos. Despite a buisy life, it's not us that your grammer is hurting, rather it is your own points.
Not to offend Tim, but you really don't seem to have an Idea of what I'm talking about yet. It is true that only flows in one direction; it is true that at the end of all things, there will be nothing left on this plane of existence that is worth speaking of. Even so, to begin to understand what I am saying, think of my earlier statement:
It is better to exist than to not exist.
The sentiment that is expressed here is more powerful than you realize. To begin with, there is nothing in this world that you have ever experienced in any way, shape or form, that does not exist. Even an Atheist would admit that God exists, insofar as God is an Idea. Magic exists, in books and movies, or more specifically as constructs of the mind and as the synapses that travel back and forth in one's brain. To exist is to have some kind of form, some kind of being. Things that do not exist are litteraly nothing. The best way to describe them that I can think of is the void, but even that is only a simple symbolic representation of something that is impossible to comprehend.
Simply put, to exist is to have some identity, to have form, to have anything and everything. To not exist is to be nothing to an uncomprehendable degree.
Therefore, to exist is infinitely better than to not exist.
Considering that when I die, there will have always have been an Andrew Warnes, I will always have existed. I may not stand here on the Last Day, but I will have stood here once before. And to have stood here once, is better than to have never stood at all.
This applies to everything.
Your previous rebuttals depend on the ultimate status of the universe, where my point exists regardless of it.
Are you understanding what I am saying now?
|
Admin: The sad thing is that it's true... |
|
CleverlikeSeneca
Valuan Prince
member is offline
Joined: Sept 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 182
Location: Spare oom
Karma: 7 | | Re: Philosophy
« Reply #44 on Jan 12, 2007, 4:23pm » | |
I understand you think that but for you to say that you are actually worth something simply because you exist is spontaneously generating worth where there has yet to be proven there is any... and I would hope you respect us more than to try to pull that on us. everything cannot have an infinite amount of worth, then bartering and our economy could not stand... in other words you cannot pick up a leaf an spontaneously give it worth you must give it worth because of something, if it reminds you of an experience that experience is giving it worth, the leaf used to do work for the tree and so the tree gave it worth... but ultimately there has to be a source where all this worth is proceeding from... and if there is no almighty no cosmic force giving worth to the whole world, then worth has never existed nor ever will exist. also when all has come to naught as you admit it will, there is nothing left to continue giving worth to what has past. that is my point Andy... it may be better to exist then never exist at all but in the end there is no proof or remembrance that you did exist so how can one be sure you did exist... we are sure now no doubt you think therefore you are and all that... but once the heat death has happened you wont think and neither will anyone think of you so you wont exist and having existed does you no good. it was better to have existed but it can't be anymore... and in conclusion.. your beard looks funny so there! (J/K)
|
Choose wisely, for it may be your last.
|
| |
|
![[Search This Thread]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/search2.gif)
![[Send Topic To Friend]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/sendtopic.gif)
![[Print]](http://s1.images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif)
Logged